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My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver (Read 754 times)
Old_Bill
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My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
08/13/08 at 17:42:37
 
This revolver was given to my wife by an old Lawman many years ago. He carried it for many years as a "back-up gun"...or a "throw-down gun"! I never knew which was correct, but knowing him and his history...I'd guess the last!
 
It is a S&W .38 Safety Hammerless 4th Model Revolver, also know as a "New Departure" or "Limon Squeezer".
 
The 4th Model of this Top-Break Revolver was made between 1898 and 1907. My revolver was made around 1900 in accordance with the SN.
 
The revolver shoots .38 Short S&W, or .38 Short Colt rounds. Which are hard to find these days!
 

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Some day when my bank safety deposit box becomes too crowded with gold coins, I'll bring the gun home! Cool
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #1 - 08/13/08 at 18:23:50
 
Tat one is still in good shape. I had a nickel one in about 95% condition for a qhile. Got it in a gun swap like 30 years ago. It had a 3.5 inch barrel. I might be wrong, but that gun of yours looks like it has had the barrel modified, prossibly cut down and a better front sight put on it. Front sight on those guns are suppose to be round, like the size of half a dime and  a little thinner. I liked the old Lemon Squeezer, but soneone offered me a substantial sum for it at a gunshow. Didn't fire it much for fear of putting wear on it.
 
About the same time, I had an Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless also. That gun was carried by my dad as a backup or as you said, "throw down." My dad hardly ever used it. It was given to him by an old constable that carried it as a backup. It was suppose to have been fished out of a water filled ditch bu the constable. Some guy's wife thad thrown it there to keep him from using it on her. The 3.5 inch barrel on that one was a bit pitted, but I replaced it with a new 2.5 inch barrel from Numrich Gun Parts. Had to tighten the top latch on it several times. Shooting it alot would make it get sloppy.  I carried it around for years and shot it with hanloads till I wore ou the ratchet. Sold it to get my first J frame.
 
I like the little guns. They are a bit underpowered and the small parts wear quickly if they are used alot.
I think they are really cool. Haven't run across one in a good while that was in good shape and cheap. Grin
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #2 - 08/13/08 at 19:39:38
 
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Old_Bill
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #3 - 08/13/08 at 21:24:14
 
Quote from Pancho_Villa on 08/13/08 at 18:23:50:
Tat one is still in good shape. I might be wrong, but that gun of yours looks like it has had the barrel modified, prossibly cut down and a better front sight put on it. Front sight on those guns are suppose to be round, like the size of half a dime and  a little thinner. I liked the old Lemon Squeezer, but soneone offered me a substantial sum for it at a gunshow. Didn't fire it much for fear of putting wear on it.

I like the little guns. They are a bit underpowered and the small parts wear quickly if they are used alot. I think they are really cool. Haven't run across one in a good while that was in good shape and cheap. Grin

 
S&W did make a special order .32 (and maybe a .38) Lemon Squeezer in a 2-inch barrel that was called a "Bicycle Model". Very rare!  
 
It does look like a good gunsmith did shorten the barrel on my gun to 1 1/2-inches. The only photo that I've seen of a "Bicycle Model" was of a .32 and it's barrel extends at least 1/2-inch beyond where my barrel ends. It also has the round front sight as you stated.
 
Last time I shot the little gun was about 30 years ago. I did carry it for a month or so in 1983 when I first went to work as a Court Deputy Sheriff...but, quickly acquire a new stainless S&W Model 60 .38 Chief to  carry in the court rooms.
 
Accuracy was about the same for both guns, but, no comparison in recoll between the .38 Short and the .38 Special +P! Grin
 
I liked the Chief because it was light, but it was difficult to shoot a high enough score at the range to qualify for approval to carry as a Deputy. I did qualify but it was a strain on other Deputies because most rounds at the range were fired in groups of 6 rounds...so everyone would have to wait until I loaded a 6th round!
 
 
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #4 - 08/13/08 at 22:43:49
 
The 2 inch barrel sounds right for the shortest lenght available for those. That one looks a bit shorter than standard. Good clean cutdown, bellygun. Back then I was loading ammo with a Lee handloader for both the .38 Short and the Special. I think I used a charge of fast burning powder about the same as a hollow base .38 spl. used, like around 750 FPS. It wasn't a + P by any means.  But, I sure would not want to get hit by one.
 
I only carried when I had to. I helped to transport prisoners. I was not a cop. Probation Officer for 20 years. But, one local sheriff required me to qualify and carry concealed when I had to go with one of my perrps.My dad was a local Chief of Police for 26 years. He hardly ever carried a belt gun. Concealed,  a snub or Colt .25 auto.
 
I tried a blue J frame first, but wore the blue off it quick. Nickel Airweight was better, but the nickel slowly thinned. Finally got a Mod. 60 and have carried it around everywhere. Still looks like the day I got it. Carry Rem 125 gr +Ps in it. Don't shoot it much with that stuff, but o.k. for carry around the old rancho. Shot a javelina with it a couple of months ago. Very accurate little gun if you can hold it steady enough.
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #5 - 08/14/08 at 11:20:46
 
Quote from Pancho_Villa on 08/13/08 at 22:43:49:


I only carried when I had to. I helped to transport prisoners. I was not a cop. Probation Officer for 20 years. But, one local sheriff required me to qualify and carry concealed when I had to go with one of my perrps.My dad was a local Chief of Police for 26 years. He hardly ever carried a belt gun. Concealed,  a snub or Colt .25 auto.

I tried a blue J frame first, but wore the blue off it quick. Nickel Airweight was better, but the nickel slowly thinned. Finally got a Mod. 60 and have carried it around everywhere. Still looks like the day I got it. Carry Rem 125 gr +Ps in it. Don't shoot it much with that stuff, but o.k. for carry around the old rancho. Shot a javelina with it a couple of months ago. Very accurate little gun if you can hold it steady enough.

 
Pancho_Villa, almost all of my time was spent taking Inmates from the County Detention Center to the Courts for arrangements, hearings, trials, and transporting convected Inmates to and from the State Prisons. The most "interesting" and dangerous job I had was providing security for the weekly Divorce Court! Shocked
 
I used my Model 60 directly out of the box, but, the Deputy Sheriff I traded it to had the revolver cleaned up and polished by an outstanding gunsmith. It was much more accurate, and the trigger pull was much smother after that.  Here is a photo of my Model 60.
 

Click image to enlarge
 
 
And the .38 S&W I traided the Model 60 for. I can't remember for sure but I believe it was a Model 67? The cylinder had been bored out so that a person could fire .357 rounds. However, I valued my hand too much to risk doing so!
 
 
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I don't believe for one minute you were not a "Cop"! Maybe your title & duties were different, but as a Probation Officer you were just as much a Law Enforcement Officer as any Deputy Sheriff or Police Officer driving a beat, or booking in prisoners! Grin
 
Old Bill  
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #6 - 08/14/08 at 11:32:58
 
Quote from Sangueffusor on 08/13/08 at 19:39:38:

 
Sangueffusor, thanks for the information. However,  the .38 Super rounds offered for sale are much too powerful for my old gun.  
 
The gun was designed for the .38 short (ACP) rounds. The .38 Super was an improvement over the .38 ACP round.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super
 
Thanks to you, I did discover that the .38 Short rounds are not near as hard to find as I had thought!  In fact, all it takes is money!! Grin
 
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #7 - 08/14/08 at 18:03:06
 
I have a box of 50 .38 S&W 146 gr. LRN from Magtech that I paid $19.50 for at a gun show. List price is now $20.51. http://tinyurl.com/6jo84p
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #8 - 08/14/08 at 19:02:58
 
Quote from Old_Bill on 08/14/08 at 11:32:58:
Sangueffusor, thanks for the information. However,  the .38 Super rounds offered for sale are much too powerful for my old gun.

The gun was designed for the .38 short (ACP) rounds. The .38 Super was an improvement over the .38 ACP round.

Thanks to you, I did discover that the .38 Short rounds are not near as hard to find as I had thought!  In fact, all it takes is money!! Grin

Old Bill
I don't see any .38 Super rounds on the page I linked to. There's some Winchester Super-X which I believe is just a brand name.
 
And I thought your gun was .38 S&W? Not .38 ACP? (Two different calibers)
 
From what I understand:
 
.38 ACP -> .38 Super (autoloader cartridges designed by John Browning, the .38 ACP originally for the Colt M1900, the .38 Super coming later and essentially .38 ACP +P)
 
And that .38 S&W is the same as .38 Colt New Police. And that there's a slightly more powerful version known as the .38 Super Police or .38/200.
 
And that .38 Short Colt is a completely different cartridge. Then there's .38 Long Colt.
 
This page kind of sorts things out: http://lonelymachines.org/2008/06/13/will-the-real-38-please-stand-up/
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #9 - 08/14/08 at 21:03:18
 
Quote from Sangueffusor on 08/14/08 at 19:02:58:
Quote from Old_Bill on 08/14/08 at 11:32:58:
Sangueffusor, thanks for the information. However,  the .38 Super rounds offered for sale are much too powerful for my old gun.

The gun was designed for the .38 short (ACP) rounds. The .38 Super was an improvement over the .38 ACP round.

Thanks to you, I did discover that the .38 Short rounds are not near as hard to find as I had thought!  In fact, all it takes is money!! Grin

Old Bill
I don't see any .38 Super rounds on the page I linked to. There's some Winchester Super-X which I believe is just a brand name.

And I thought your gun was .38 S&W? Not .38 ACP? (Two different calibers)

From what I understand:

.38 ACP -> .38 Super (autoloader cartridges designed by John Browning, the .38 ACP originally for the Colt M1900, the .38 Super coming later and essentially .38 ACP +P)

And that .38 S&W is the same as .38 Colt New Police. And that there's a slightly more powerful version known as the .38 Super Police or .38/200.

And that .38 Short Colt is a completely different cartridge. Then there's .38 Long Colt.

This page kind of sorts things out: http://lonelymachines.org/2008/06/13/will-the-real-38-please-stand-up/

 
I would be very leary of using current commercial avavailable .38 S&W rounds, without a great deal of checking, because of the danger of too powerful loads, and whether or not the bullets used are the correct size.
 
My gun is designed to use the .38 S&W round, with a .361 lead bullet, and not the .357 bullet used in almost all .38 rounds made today. I understand that the .361 size bullets haven't been made for many years.
 
Which really doesn't mean a thing to me since I have enough .38 S&W size rounds (12) to last me the rest of my life...because I don't plan on ever firing the gun again! Cool
 
Thanks for the information,
 
 
Old Bill  
 
 
 
  
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #10 - 08/14/08 at 21:15:50
 
I love old guns. Lot of history there. I know you are proud. Thanks for sharing with us.
 
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #11 - 08/15/08 at 01:09:25
 
That 60 you have there looks like a nice hideout.
 
Kinda like this one. Grin
 

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The grips make it easier to handle the +P stuff. I think I know where my badge is, maybe?
 
Yep, the short cartridge is .361 or so. I could not find the correct bullets for it so I used .357 bullets. Had to size the shorts in a .38 spl. Lee loader for the cases to hold the bullets. Cases did not last long and had a tenency to split. Bullets worked o.k. at short ranges out of my IJ. They were a few throusands too loose in the arrel. Only shot standard ammo out of the Squeezer.. It was only 8 bucks back then.
 
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #12 - 08/15/08 at 02:33:10
 
Modern .38 S&W rounds are loaded pretty weak as they are intended for old guns. Some of the older top-breaks, though not S&W, will chamber the .38 Special case with a wad cutter bullet seated flush with the case mouth because they have a bored through cylinder.
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #13 - 08/16/08 at 08:20:58
 
This thread makes me want to go spend money. I love J frames.
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Re: My old S&W .38 Safety Hammerless Revolver
Reply #14 - 08/16/08 at 13:15:53
 
Lot of interesting info in this thread...and that top break is beautiful!
 
EVERY time I start reading about .38 Super and .38 ACP, I always get .38 ACP confused with .380 ACP.  Took me a minute wandering around wikipedia to get that confusion straightened out again, I'm all better!   Grin
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