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Where is it!!!  Here it is!!! (Read 18559 times)
Liberty4Ever
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #45 - 10/31/08 at 10:49:15
 
Thanks for the great pictures ktwm. I'm heading to the shop with my SU-22.
 
I'm teaching an introductory shooting clinic on Sunday afternoon and plan on using the SU-22 quite a bit. I'll let you know!
 
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #46 - 11/12/08 at 22:20:09
 
I finally got out to shoot the SU-22. It's broken in and I opened up the ejection port a bit and it shoots like a completely different rifle. Slicker than owl snot. If the feed ramp needs any work, I can't tell. I shot 200 rounds today. No feed problems. No ejection problems. Two misfires where Federal didn't put any primer in the case. I'm loving that little SU-22. It's the only gun I took to the range today, and I still didn't leave until dark, as usual. Having relatively inexpensive .22 ammo to shoot sure does help.
 
Here's my best target today, although many were almost as good, including a few that were a ragged 4 leaf clover with a flier.
 

Click image to enlarge

 
I shot from the prone position. I need to add two inches to the Charlie stock. The length of pull is far too short for me to get a good cheek weld and lockup in the prone position. Seated, it seems OK. The somewhat random position of the rifle caused some extra motion that accounted for some of the accuracy error, changes in eye placement caused a little parallax in the 9X Simmons scope which caused some of the error, and the cheap bulk pack ammo might have opened the groups a little too. About 1% of the Federal bulk pack ammo have no primer at all and misfire. About 3% of the Federal bulk pack ammo would make a funny sounding pop instead of the usual .22 crack, and they'd often fly an inch to the right at 25 yards. I didn't see much difference in the quality of the Federal Value pack (maroon box) and the Federal Champion (light blue box) That's about $3 more per 525 round box. Both had the same number of rounds with no primer, the same percentage of squib sounding loads, and about the same accuracy although the Champion might have been slightly better.
 
I inadvertently did a little survival test. Last time I was out, someone dumped my box of Federal bulk pack ammo into the dirt. It was wet. I picked it all back up, but the ammo was wet and there was a lot of grass and leaf debris mixed in. About 125 of the rounds I shot today were those, and the bullets were nasty and tarnished. They shot the same. I suppose getting .22 ammo damp on the outside doesn't hurt it too much, but getting it soaking wet would probably be bad. I think I'll have a wide mouth waterproof bottle for my .22 survival ammo.
 
I'd like to shoot the SU-22 off the bench so I can really see what it'll do. I still plan to evaluate it with a lot of different types of ammo.
 
Here are the pictures of the ejection port after I opened it up before shooting.
 

Click image to enlarge

 

Click image to enlarge

 
I was going to mill it, but it was too much hassle to try to hold the stock in the correct position. I used a file and then two grades of sandpaper. You could do a better job with a wide sanding stick and use 100 grit, then 220 grit, then if you want to be anal, 1500 grit Abralon or MicroMesh to polish it. I didn't use the sanding stick and finally did the job while talking on the phone, so the ejection port has a slight waviness to it. It shoots great, so I don't mind. It's a tough little rifle and I didn't buy it to baby it. It was out in a drizzle at the range for part of today. I just opened the gun case and it looks like I took a garden hose to it. I'll air dry it tonight and give it a good cleaning tomorrow.
 
I'm loving this little rifle. I'm looking forward to bench rest shooting it and seeing what ammo it shoots best, and maybe put a small diameter scope on it. I may get a 6X fixed but I like the 3X-9X. A 10X might be ideal for what I want.
 
I need a good lightweight sling, and I'm thinking about getting either a light but stiff bi-pod, or maybe some stiff shooting sticks for stabilized shooting from the improvised seated position.
 
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #47 - 11/13/08 at 07:47:47
 
That's a darn good group for bulk pack ammo. (about 2 moa)
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #48 - 11/13/08 at 08:37:30
 
Quote from ktwm on 11/13/08 at 07:47:47:

That's a darn good group for bulk pack ammo. (about 2 moa)


I'm sure I could do better with bench rest shooting. Like all stable shooting positions, prone shooting relies on three points of contact. Three points define a plane sort of like a bar stool that doesn't wobble no matter how uneven the floor might be. Unfortunately, when I get in the prone position, I'm more like a beach ball. My belly forms one contact point and I roll around alternately touching at the knees and elbows.  Grin
 
I know a guy who is nuts about the Appleseed Project.
 
http://www.appleseedinfo.org
 
They teach rifle shooting, with a strong emphasis on the need to be an expert rifleman to defend our liberty. It's sort of like Militia Lite, now with 50% less crazy. They use a lot of Ruger 10/22 rifles to teach because ammo is cheap. They shoot at 25 meters and they shoot reduced sized silhouette targets that simulate people at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I think they should have little light blue UN "peace keeper" helmet outlines! This guy has a couple of the Ruger 10/22 rifles that the Appleseed guys call LTRs, or Liberty Training Rifles. His are tricked out with AR-15 style Tech Sights, match triggers, and one has a bull barrel. It's very accurate. The Appleseed guys discourage scopes, but being almost 50, I say to heck with that. My goal is to get a good scope on there and find an ammo it likes and work on my technique and out shoot this guy's tricked out 10/22, or at least do as well as he does. for a lot less money, and a lot less snob appeal... and my rifle folds in half sucka. I think I'll need a lighter trigger on the SU-22, too.
 
My neck is a little sore today from lying on the ground and holding my head up to look through the scope.
 
I went scope shopping. I wanted a smaller and lighter and shorter scope. The small diameter scopes are not high magnification scopes. The best option I found was the TrueGlow 4X32.
 
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=924813
 
I like that it ships with the rings, (Edit To Add: The rings are for dovetail .22 mounting and are not compatible with the SU-22 Picatinny rail) so all I need to buy is some good BushWacker flip up lens covers.
 
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=172205
 
4X is probably enough magnification and the larger field of view will help a lot in quick target identification. I tested the 4X on my 3-9X scope with some dry fire practice in my suburban neighborhood. I hope my neighbors don't call the police on me. I think they already believe I'm some sort of uber-right extremist. Hey, as Barry Goldwater said, extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Anyway, with a clear 4X scope, I think I can shoot the dusk to dawn sensor off a streetlight at 100 yards.
 
This is all good learning. If I like the small 4X scope on the SU-22, I may get the same setup for the Carbine RFB, which I'd expect to shoot at 200 yards or less. $80 for scope, rings and lens covers, delivered, seems a good value, although I realize that the RFB deserves some excellent optics. This may be the rare exception to the rule that the scope should cost about as much as the rifle.
 
Oh yeah, there were no marks at all on the surface where I made the expanded SU-22 ejection port, so that confirms that the brass isn't catching on the ejection port any more, although the zero jams while shooting and no cases stuck above the chamber pretty well confirmed that theory.
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« Last Edit: 12/24/08 at 00:32:43 by Liberty4Ever »  

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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #49 - 11/15/08 at 19:31:03
 
Great.  Just great.  My newgunitis is flaring up after reading this thread.  Besides saving money on ammo, it has the good-looking forend and will fit a sidefolder stock.  I can have a rifle with the kewl features and leave Charlotte stock.  When more compact mags come out (10 rounders is plenty for me), it will be just about perfect.
 
I'm afraid it's time for a gun-store crawl, and we have a show coming up in Birmingham.  
 
Sigh.
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #50 - 11/18/08 at 12:14:05
 
I just ordered a small 4X32 TruGlo rimfire scope for the SU-22. The scope also includes the rings. (Edit To Add: The rings are 3/8" dovetail rings and do not fit the Picatinny rail)
 

Click image to enlarge

 
I also got a pair of the very nice Quake Bushwacker lens covers. I like them better than Butler Creek, and they're slightly less expensive.
 
I tried to buy this stuff at Midway but both items were back ordered, as is too often the case.
 
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=924813
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=172205
 
I checked my Midway Wish List and 30%  of the items were back ordered and 50% of the dollar value was on back order.
 
I found the items in stock at SWFA.com. They sell a lot of scopes and accessories and I like them. The delivered cost was also $12 less than Midway. I like Midway for many reasons, but I can't buy what they don't have. These items were back ordered in early November at Midway and they estimated they'd be available in mid-November. Now their estimate is late November. I gave up and spent a couple of minutes Googling. I not only found the stuff I wanted in stock at SWFA, but I found it for a couple of dollars less at J&M Hunting Supply, for a delivered cost that's 22% less than Midway. I ordered the scope and lens covers from them. I'll see how that works.
 
http://www.shootnhunt.com/catalog/JM/scopes_sights_and_optics/handgun_rifles_sco pes/truglo_scopes/0923083.html
http://www.shootnhunt.com/catalog/JM/scopes_sights_and_optics/handgun_rifles_sco pes/scope_covers/quake_bushwacker/0907643.html
 
If you don't want the see-thru yellow lens covers, you can save a few bucks with the black lens caps.
 
http://www.shootnhunt.com/catalog/JM/scopes_sights_and_optics/handgun_rifles_sco pes/scope_covers/quake_bushwacker/0908015.html
 
Hopefully soon, I'll have a nice little lightweight 4X scope on my SU-22!
 
I gave up on mounting the scope on see-through rings so I could use the fixed sights underneath. I think I'll prefer the lower profile of shorter rings with the smaller diameter scope, for the smallest possible folded size. I'll pack the small Torx wrench I need to remove the scope (like an Allen wrench) and the small Phillips driver I need to reinstall the rear sight. I might Blue Loctite the right screw so the windage adjustment is maintained when the rear sight is removed. That way, in the unlikely event that the scope fails, I can pull it off and replace the rear sight in the field.
 
I'll post pictures and a range report for this new TruGlo scope, hopefully soon.
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« Last Edit: 07/02/09 at 10:56:10 by Liberty4Ever »  

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Liberty4Ever
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #51 - 11/26/08 at 12:41:52
 
TruGlo 4X32 Scope
 
I received the TruGlo 4X32 scope from J&M Hunting Supplies yesterday. It took a couple of days to ship it, so their service wasn't as fast as Midway, but they had what I wanted in stock so it was faster than the 2-3 weeks I had been waiting for the Midway backorder, and they were significantly less expensive. Next time, I might try SWFA for a very good price and perhaps a little faster service?
 
This is my first TruGlo scope and it seems well designed and well built, especially for the price. It's only rated for air guns and rimfire weapons, so I wouldn't use this in a high recoil application. The rings that are included are well made but only work on the sort of 3/8" dovetail rail that's on .22 rifles. Fortunately, I had the 1" rings from the much larger Simmons scope and I used them. Another option would be some light weight see-thru rings so I could use the open sights.
 
I like the SU-22C with the smaller scope, and 4X seems just about right for the little .22 rifle (and I like a lot of magnification).
 

Click image to enlarge

 

Click image to enlarge

 

Click image to enlarge

 

Click image to enlarge

 
The blue tape on the mag is my cheesy method of determining that there are 25 rounds in the 27 round mag. It's too difficult to insert the last two rounds, and 25 is an easy number to count when I'm tracking how many rounds I've shot that day. It also works well when shooting five shot strings at five targets.
 
The TruGlo scope has a long 5" of eye relief, and the length of pull on the SU-22 (CA or C) was already too short for most rifle scopes, but the shorter TruGlo scope can be mounted forward and works almost perfectly for me when the eyepiece is even with the back edge of the rail. My eye lands just at the scope's focal point.
 
There is some edge distortion in the fixed power scope. I think that's a function of the lens profile although it may be some other artifact of making such a short scope. It's only 8.7" long (9.2" after adding the nice #4 Quake Bushwacker flip up yellow lens covers). The edge distortion isn't that bad, in the sense that objects are still recognizable if you're searching for the target, and the center view is very clear. Perceptually, it draws my attention to the focal point at the center of the field of view.
 
There doesn't seem to be any focus adjustment on the scope. It looks fine when I use my glasses, but many people like to adjust the scope focus to match their uncorrected vision and shoot without their glasses so they don't have one more piece of glass in the optical path, and that won't work with this scope.
 
I hope this will be a small, light, durable and reliable scope for my SU-22.
 
I was able to mount a rear notch sight under the scope using the other rings. I wanted the scope as low as possible and shorter rings could have lowered it another .1" or so, but the scope height seems just right for the cheek weld I get with the Charlie stock. If I mounted the scope a little lower, the backup rear iron sight probably wouldn't fit on the rail under the scope. As it is, if the scope failed, I can remove it with a flat screwdriver and use the open sights. I still need to sight the iron sights with the scope removed, and I should get rings that don't require the iron sight to be removed to slide the scope off the back. I should blue Loctite the right screw on the rear sight to fix the windage once it's sighted.
 
Scope Swap Tip:
I had already sighted the old scope, so I used my Leupold Zero Point Bore Sighter to determine where the old scope reticle was pointed on the bore sighter's grid, and then I adjusted the new scope to the same point on the grid. The new scope should be very close to being sighted properly when I head back out to the range.
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #52 - 11/26/08 at 13:02:47
 
Mighty nice lookin' setup FlyBoy.  
 
I like the looks of the shorter scopes myself.  
 
Looking forward to a range report.  Cool
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #53 - 11/26/08 at 13:25:33
 
I spoke with a Banger's employee Sunday and he said he has seen exactly ONE SU22 come through, and it didn't stop for breath.
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #54 - 12/03/08 at 21:33:13
 
I went on a strenuous 4.4 mile rapid hilly hike today (man, I'm out of shape) and dropped by my local shooting spot on the way home to try to squeeze in some SU-22 trigger time before dark. I wanted to evaluate the new 4X32 TruGlo scope mentioned earlier in this thread. Short answer - I LIKE IT!
 
I set up the targets and on the way back to shoot I was distracted by a lot of nice brass just laying there for the taking. I couldn't resist, so 45 minutes later I had seven pounds of brass (lots of .223, 5.7 and .357 Sig) Smiley and it was almost dark. Sad
 
I shot the magazine of Federal Champion Bulk Pack ammo and went home. Here are the five targets in the order I shot them, five rounds each.
 
 
 
The first was shot from a sitting position, but I was winded and woozy from bending over picking up brass (told you I was out of shape), and it was nearly dark. The 9mm pistol in my back pocket is normally very comfortable and unobtrusive but is not conducive to shooting from the sitting position. I rocked back and forth sitting on the 9mm like a Weeble who wobbles but he won't fall down.
 

Click image to enlarge

 
 
 
The rest of the targets were shot from the prone position, fairly quickly, as darkness fell.
 

Click image to enlarge

 
 

Click image to enlarge

 
 
 
I shot the fourth target with my middle finger pressing the trigger, per a current discussion elsewhere on KTOG, and didn't do too badly. The SU-22 felt surprisingly good that way. I should practice that more often for rifle shooting.
 

Click image to enlarge

 
 
 
For the last target, I was back to using my right index finger.
 

Click image to enlarge

 
 
 
The five successive targets had consistently smaller group sizes despite the rapidly descending darkness. At the rate I was going, I'd have been putting all bullets in the same hole after another two magazines, 15 minutes later when it was completely dark. Cheesy
 
The 4X scope didn't seem like enough magnification to me at first. I'm old, and 40 years of intense computer use has ruined my eyesight so I like a lot of magnification, but I shot the 4X32 scope as well as I did the 9X50 scope that I used the last time. My ability to hold the SU-22 on target while releasing the trigger seems to be the limiting factor on accuracy and not the scope magnification. The 4X32 scope seems ideal on the SU-22, as others have found to be the case on many .22 rifles. Clear optics seem more important than magnification at this distance, for this type of shooting.
 
I thought the 32mm scope would do poorly in such a low light condition, and while the image was dim it was clear and usable, even without any way to adjust the focus. In more typical daytime lighting, I think the small and lightweight 4X32 scope will be ideal.
 
I didn't touch the windage or elevation adjustments after installing the new scope. I used the Leupold Zero Point Bore Sighter to locate the cross hairs from the previous already sighted scope on the bore sight's grid and adjusted the cross hairs on the new scope to the same grid offset and it seemed just about right. That's a cool feature if you swap a scope and want to be on paper in as few shots as possible.
 
Notice the group offset to the right on the last target. I think I had a different cheek weld and that caused a little parallax error. I remember having a hard time getting a clear sight picture in the scope. I kept getting a dark ring around the outside of the scope image, indicating my pupil was misaligned to the scope's focal point. I need to work on a good and consistent cheek weld on the Charlie stock (which I'm still digging on the SU-22).
 
I'm looking forward to shooting the SU-22 with the TruGlo 4X32 scope again soon. Hopefully next time, I'll shoot in the daylight instead of picking up brass. Roll Eyes
 
I'm still loving this little .22 rifle. It's a ton of fun to shoot, and cheap to boot! As I mentioned before, it's settled in nicely and is now running like a Swiss watch. I think Kel-Tec has a big winner on their hands with the SU-22.
 
I might need to get a PLR-22 and put a bi-pod on it and have a little friendly competition with KY-Redneck-Geek and his very nice bull barrel Ruger Challenger pistol. I'd also like to find an accurate ammo that the SU-22 likes a lot and challenge some 10/22 owners after I work on my shooting skills. The SU-22 is a great little rifle to learn better shooting skills. It's my new Liberty Training Rifle.
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #55 - 12/03/08 at 22:25:47
 
I'd say that's some pretty good shootin' for a heavy-set old blind man perched on a PM9 in the dark.  Grin
 
Looks like the scope is a good one.  
 
And you got some brass out of the deal too.  Cool
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #56 - 12/05/08 at 14:25:49
 
Nice looking set-up Liberty.  What does the blue tape stand for on the mag?
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #57 - 12/05/08 at 14:31:52
 
Quote from cmreds on 12/05/08 at 14:25:49:

What does the blue tape stand for on the mag?


 
Quote from Liberty4Ever on 11/26/08 at 12:41:52:

The blue tape on the mag is my cheesy method of determining that there are 25 rounds in the 27 round mag. It's too difficult to insert the last two rounds, and 25 is an easy number to count when I'm tracking how many rounds I've shot that day. It also works well when shooting five shot strings at five targets.


 
I wouldn't want to read all that gibberish, either. Cheesy
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #58 - 12/05/08 at 14:36:14
 
Makes sense - sorry for asking again.
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Re: Where is it!!!  Here it is!!!
Reply #59 - 12/05/08 at 14:47:38
 
No problem at all. I was being serious. I WOULDN'T want to read all that gibberish!
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