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A Theoretical Discussion (Read 1399 times)
Ronny97
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #30 - 02/22/09 at 11:52:18
 
My previous statement may make some of you feel uneasy...But this is the reality.  The 2nd amendment, from a legal standpoint is in its infancy.  It is wide open to interpretation and regulation.  That is why this discussion is so important and why we all need to pay attention to what the feds are up to.
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Grizzly
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #31 - 06/30/09 at 00:02:33
 
It isn't just the second amendment that says we have a right to bear arms to protect our selves, in the New Testament, I believe it is the book of Luke  21:38   Jesus says (he that hath no sword sell your garment and buy one).  
 
I believe we the people of the USA need to rethink our Government and trim back its power considerably.
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virtual-rjhauser
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #32 - 06/30/09 at 17:19:35
 
Quote from Ronny97 on 02/22/09 at 11:52:18:
My previous statement may make some of you feel uneasy...But this is the reality.  The 2nd amendment, from a legal standpoint is in its infancy.  It is wide open to interpretation and regulation.  That is why this discussion is so important and why we all need to pay attention to what the feds are up to.

 
Disagreeing point of view, the second amendment is NOT open to interpretation or discussion.  it quite PLAINLY states how it is.  no more no less.
 
keep the government out of our affairs ...
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MajMike
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #33 - 07/12/09 at 09:20:09
 
Just a thought, many state's Constitutions have the same BoR's as the Federal Constitution, so it may be harder in some than others to ban guns.   I can't see the South or (real) western states (sans Kali, of course) going along without a fight.
 
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Bobo
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #34 - 07/12/09 at 20:50:44
 
The argument that something can or cannot be done because of its constitutionality is quickly becoming irrelevant. The Constitution is rapidly becoming a meaningless document. Much of what Obama (and also Bush) has done is unconstitutional, but it has been done anyway. The days of sending laws and acts through a constitutional filter before passage are almost over.
 
God help us!!!
 
Bobo
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As always... just my opinion.
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Ronny97
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #35 - 07/26/09 at 22:48:57
 
Meaningless?  I tend not to be so synical, but you're right in your statement that Obama and Bush have done some unconstitutional things.  We must remember that something is not unconstitutional untill a court deems it so.  Which means we should all speak up all the time so rights aren't chipped away little by little.
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #36 - 07/27/09 at 02:36:47
 
Quote from Liberty4Ever on 02/19/09 at 18:51:05:

I believe that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work, but that's not how it worked the two times I heard my dealers calling in the data from the 4473.

I've read that some states call the data into NICS and some call it into their state police. That may account for regional differences.

I know here in Ks we only call NICS, never local or state police and we only give  'hand gun' or 'long gun'. The extra info you mention must be from your local or state government requirements but it is not from the Feds.
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #37 - 07/28/09 at 05:00:17
 
The two most maligned Supreme Court decisions of all time are probably Dred Scott vs. Sanford and Plessy vs. Ferguson, both dealing with race relations. In the Dred Scott decision the Court basically reviewed the history and practice of race relations in the United States back to early colonial times and then used it's findings to decide that the full rights of American citizenship were only possessed by Whites, not by Blacks, whether slave or free, or by Native Americans.
 
In so doing the Court briefly listed a few of the rights which they clearly believed no person would question as belonging to White Americans, and asked in effect: "Do you really want Blacks to have these rights too?"
 
One of these rights was the ". . . . right to keep and carry arms wherever they went."
 
From Dred Scott vs. Sanford:
 
Quote:
For if they (Black Americans) were so received, and entitled to the privileges and immunities of citizens, it would exempt them from the operation of the special laws and from the police regulations which they considered to be necessary for their own safety. It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognised as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the State. (Emphasis added.)

 
Clearly, it was the established view at that time that the "right to keep and carry arms wherever we went" (paraphrase) was a right beyond questioning, as long as one was White. Today of course that right would apply to any person who is a U.S. citizen and has reached the legal age of adulthood and not been deprived of his or her rights by the action of a court.
 
Also from  Dred Scott vs. Sanford on the rights of citizens in the States:
 
Quote:
But if he ranks as a citizen in the State to which he belongs, within the meaning of the Constitution of the United States, then, whenever he goes into another State, the Constitution clothes him, as to the rights of person, will all the privileges and immunities which belong to citizens of the State. And if persons of the African race are citizens of a State, and of the United States, they would be entitled to all of these privileges and immunities in every State, and the State could not restrict them; for they would hold these privileges and immunities under the paramount authority of the Federal Government, and its courts would be bound to maintain and enforce them, the Constitution and laws of the State to the contrary notwithstanding. And if the States could limit or restrict them, or place the party in an inferior grade, this clause of the Constitution would be unmeaning, and could have no operation; and would give no rights to the citizen when in another State. He would have none but what the State itself chose to allow him. (Emphasis added)

 
One can certainly argue that the Court was wrong in concluding that Blacks were not citizens of the United States, but they clearly explained the rights of those who were citizens and the fact that those rights superseded State law.
 
The Court in Dred Scott on the doctrine of Original Intent:
 
Quote:
No one, we presume, supposes that any change in public opinion or feeling, in relation to this unfortunate race, in the civilized nations of Europe or in this country, should induce the court to give to the words of the Constitution a more liberal construction in their favor than they were intended to bear when the instrument was framed and adopted. Such an argument would be altogether inadmissible in any tribunal called on to interpret it. If any of its provisions are deemed unjust, there is a mode prescribed in the instrument itself by which it may be amended; but while it remains unaltered, it must be construed now as it was understood at the time of its adoption. It is not only the same in words, but the same in meaning, and delegates the same powers to the Government, and reserves and secures the same rights and privileges to the citizen; and as long as it continues to exist in its present form, it speaks not only in the same words, but with the same meaning and intent with which it spoke when it came from the hands of its framers, and was voted on and adopted by the people of the United States. Any other rule of construction would abrogate the judicial character of this court, and make it the mere reflex of the popular opinion or passion of the day. This court was not created by the Constitution for such purposes. Higher and graver trusts have been confided to it, and it must not falter in the path of duty. (Emphasis added)
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« Last Edit: 07/28/09 at 05:35:36 by PshootR »  

PshootR

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timebandit
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #38 - 07/28/09 at 05:08:28
 
Quote from Burley on 07/27/09 at 02:36:47:
Quote from Liberty4Ever on 02/19/09 at 18:51:05:

I believe that's the way it's SUPPOSED to work, but that's not how it worked the two times I heard my dealers calling in the data from the 4473.

I've read that some states call the data into NICS and some call it into their state police. That may account for regional differences.

I know here in Ks we only call NICS, never local or state police and we only give  'hand gun' or 'long gun'. The extra info you mention must be from your local or state government requirements but it is not from the Feds.

 
Same thing here in FL.
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"Those who abjure violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Glasstream15
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #39 - 10/05/09 at 14:46:10
 
Quote from Paul_J._Nolan on 02/22/09 at 00:44:39:

.  In Bush vs. Gore the Supreme Court, in a blatant criminal act, threw a Presidential election, thus depriving American citizens of their right to elect their leaders.  These things happen all the time and often without a peep of protest.  Once, long ago, I thought gun proponents--like our friend Lurk--were paranoid.  Now I think they have forsight.

Paul

 
In Bush v Gore the SCOTUS ruled that a State Supreme Court could NOT change election law AFTER the election had been held. Explain the criminality of anyone other than the Gore Democrats who attempted to change the law in the state court AFTER the election.
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Jaeger2600
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #40 - 11/07/09 at 07:48:39
 
Quote from TxCajun on 02/21/09 at 08:33:44:

Confiscation would be a state act?  Huh  
The states already have no more right to violate the U.S. Constitution than does the federal government.  What would be the point in having a U.S. Bill of Rights, including the 2nd A, that state or local laws could ignore or supersede?  This is why the NRA is taking on places like DC, Chicago and San Francisco, and winning.  They cannot ignore Heller and continue to ban gun ownership.  No amount of "bribery" from the federal government could coerce states to ignore the constitution and confiscate guns.

 
TxCajun: The Bill of Rights was drafted to protect against federal predations, not state ones, as it was created in the context of a Federalist system. After they realized they were not going to prevent the total replacement of the Articles of Confederation with a stronger Federal system, the Anti-federalists insisted on a Bill of Rights that would clearly delineate some of the specific rights that the federal government would be forbidden from violating.
 
States do, in point of fact, have "more right to violate the U.S. Constitution than does the federal government," if by "violate the Constitution" you mean "doing things that the federal government would not be permitted to do under the Constitution." For example, Massachusetts had a state religion until more than a decade into the 1800s, the First Amendment notwithstanding. Remember, the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law..." not "No law shall be made by anyone..." Now, it isn't really accurate to say that "states have a right to violate the Constitution" because the Constitution was not written to bind the states, except in very limited ways, such as guaranteeing that they would maintain "republican form of government" (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Four_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clau se_1:_Republican_government ) It was not until the post-Civil War ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment that there was any legal hook for getting the states to respect Constitutional provisions that did not specifically apply to the states. The legal doctrine of "Selective Incorporation," that is, the application of select Federal Constitutional protections to the states, has been used in the 20th Century to restrain state and local, rather than only federal, actors. The Second Amendment has never been incorporated by the Supreme Court.  
 
This is not surprising since the Court had never made a definitive statement on the nature of the Second Amendment right before Heller. Now that Heller has defined the right as one that pertains to individuals and not merely to the state governments, the Second Amendment incorporation issue is being tackled in McDonald v. Chicago, which is being litigated by Alan Gura, thingy Heller's attorney.
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Jaeger2600
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #41 - 11/07/09 at 08:12:17
 
Quote from TxCajun on 02/22/09 at 09:47:25:
Unlike gold or even your home, the difference is that firearms are the only personal property specifically protected by the constitution.

 
Actually, let's not start giving away the meager constitutional protections that are in there. One's house, person, papers, and effects are all "specifically protected" to some extent. At the very least, I think you would agree that we could add "house" and "papers" to your list:
 
* The Third Amendment states that: "No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."
 
* The Fourth Amendment states that: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
 
* The Fifth Amendment states that: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
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Jaeger2600
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #42 - 11/07/09 at 09:16:17
 
Quote from TxCajun on 02/21/09 at 08:33:44:

This is why the NRA is taking on places like DC, Chicago and San Francisco, and winning.  They cannot ignore Heller and continue to ban gun ownership.  No amount of "bribery" from the federal government could coerce states to ignore the constitution and confiscate guns.

 
The NRA was initially against the DC gun case, first known as the "Parker" case and originally including Cato's Tom Palmer as a party. Alan Gura (who argued the case at the Supreme Court level) and Clark Neily both told me, on separate occasions, that NRA lawyers thought the case was a loser. The NRA certainly didn't put the money up to get it off the ground at the district level. From what I understand, the NRA was afraid of getting a negative precedent on the issue and wanted to wait. Bob Levy from Cato had the money to get the case going.
 
Unfortunately, Scalia's opinion in Heller, though it states that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms (the good news), allows for "reasonable" restrictions (the bad news). So even though the high court is probably going to incorporate the Second Amendment in McDonald v. Chicago, even the restrictive laws in a place like MA are likely to remain mostly intact. (SCOTUS granted cert for McDonald v. Chicago, by the way: http://www.chicagoguncase.com/2009/09/30/press-release-supreme-court-to-hear-mcd onald-case/ )
 
What is most interesting about the McDonald case is the question that the writ of cert. (according to the SCOTUS blog) says is at issue: "The question posed to the Court is whether the incorporation is accomplished under either the “privileges or immunities” clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or under its “due process” clause.  The petition urges the Court to use this case as an opportunity to reexamine the meaning of the “privileges and immunities” provision, which it noted was given an “almost meaningless construction” by the Court’s controversial decision in the Slaughter- House Cases in 1873."
 
As Professor Randy Barnett said at the Volokh Conspiracy (See http://volokh.com/2009/11/06/georgetown-panel-on-mcdonald-the-privileges-or-immu nities-clause/ ), "This indicates that the meaning of the long-ignored Privileges or Immunities Clause is now in play, and that the Court wants to squarely address this constitutional question, as Justice Thomas has long been urging it to do. Rarely do constitutional law cases involve the isolated issue of the original meaning of the text. Heller is one such case; McDonald could be another. Is it really possible that the court will restore not one, but two clauses of the Lost Constitution?"
 
This is potentially important to challenging restrictive economic regulations, a la Lochner (although Lochner described something called "substantive due process" as applying to freedom of contract, and thus used the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause, not its Privileges or Immunities Clause)(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochner_v._New_York and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantive_due_process and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privileges_or_Immunities_Clause ). This might enable folks to argue that part and parcel of the privileges and immunities granted to citizens of the United States are things like the right to work as many hours as you want, be free of excessive taxation, etc. (Might--I'm not counting on it.)
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Jaeger2600
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Re: A Theoretical Discussion
Reply #43 - 11/07/09 at 14:58:44
 
Quote from Ronny97 on 07/26/09 at 22:48:57:
 We must remember that something is not unconstitutional untill a court deems it so.

 
Thomas Jefferson would have disagreed; John Marshall would not have. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_%2798 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison )
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