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Non-Standard Ammo (Read 2377 times)
TxCajun
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Non-Standard Ammo
04/01/09 at 22:34:23
 
The KT owner's manual prohibits the use of "non-standard ammo".  When specifically asked, they will tell you to avoid steel, aluminum and polymer-cased ammunition.  They recommend only quality, brass-cased ammunition.  
 
 
Quote from tjay on 04/01/09 at 02:40:36:

I returned my PF-9 to Kel-Tec because the gun started failing to extract the spent case.

Kel Tec identified the problem as a broken extractor and made the necessary repairs.

There was also a note returned with the gun stating that ammunition utilizing aluminum, steel or polymer cases was NOT recommended for use it this gun. This was news to me as this was mentioned nowhere in my manual as I remember.

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airhead
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #1 - 04/02/09 at 07:46:35
 
With the ammo shortage, all I've been able to get is Blazer (non-brass - aluminum cased).
 
For SD, I shoot a 'quality ammo' Winchester Ranger (which is what the local PD also shoots).  And it is also aluminum cased.
 
So I think the inferred statement is a bit of an oxymoron or a bit of prejudice in that "only brass cased ammo can be quality ammo." or "quality ammo only comes in brass cases."
 
Now, if they simply said "Shoot only brass cases because our extractors are not hardened to handle aluminum or steel cased ammo."  that might have made sense.
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KelTekCajun
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #2 - 04/02/09 at 09:30:23
 
Quote from airhead on 04/02/09 at 07:46:35:
With the ammo shortage, all I've been able to get is Blazer (non-brass - aluminum cased).

For SD, I shoot a 'quality ammo' Winchester Ranger (which is what the local PD also shoots).  And it is also aluminum cased.

So I think the inferred statement is a bit of an oxymoron or a bit of prejudice in that "only brass cased ammo can be quality ammo." or "quality ammo only comes in brass cases."

Now, if they simply said "Shoot only brass cases because our extractors are not hardened to handle aluminum or steel cased ammo."  that might have made sense.

 
No, I think the statement implied shoot only quality, brass-cased ammo. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't use sub-quality, brass-cased ammo or brass-cased ammo of unknown quality like gun show reloads.
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rcmodel
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #3 - 04/02/09 at 10:20:28
 
Quote from airhead on 04/02/09 at 07:46:35:
I shoot a 'quality ammo' Winchester Ranger (which is what the local PD also shoots).  And it is also aluminum cased.
I believe if you scratch off the nickle plating with a knife, you will find a brass case under there.
 
Winchester doesn't make any aluminum cased ammo to my knowledge.
 
rc
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airhead
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #4 - 04/02/09 at 13:18:16
 
Quote from rcmodel on 04/02/09 at 10:20:28:
Quote from airhead on 04/02/09 at 07:46:35:
I shoot a 'quality ammo' Winchester Ranger (which is what the local PD also shoots).  And it is also aluminum cased.
I believe if you scratch off the nickle plating with a knife, you will find a brass case under there.

Winchester doesn't make any aluminum cased ammo to my knowledge.

rc

That could well be the case.  I saw the dull silver and a magnet didn't bother it.  Assumed it was aluminum. (you know what happens when you assume....)
 undecided
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rcmodel
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #5 - 04/02/09 at 13:24:27
 
Well, I could be wrong too. Wouldn't be the first time.
 
I haven't seen any of it personally.
 
I'd really be interested if you could do a "Scratch & Sniff" test and see if there really is brass or aluminum under there.
 
Inquiring minds want to know!
 
Thanks!
 
rc
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #6 - 04/02/09 at 23:19:34
 
Quote from rcmodel on 04/02/09 at 10:20:28:
Quote from airhead on 04/02/09 at 07:46:35:
I shoot a 'quality ammo' Winchester Ranger (which is what the local PD also shoots).  And it is also aluminum cased.
I believe if you scratch off the nickle plating with a knife, you will find a brass case under there.

Winchester doesn't make any aluminum cased ammo to my knowledge.

rc

 
Ranger is nickle plated brass.  I have more than a few rounds of it to know about.
 
if you doubt it, contact winchester using the following e-mail address and ask:
 
pfnowak@olin.com
 
 
or at the following:
 
WINCHESTER® RANGER®
LAW ENFORCEMENT AMMUNITION
1-800-356-2666
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #7 - 04/03/09 at 10:43:18
 
I use Hornady TAP FHD 124gr in mine, same as the Winchester in that it is nickle plated brass. I wouldn't suppose that Kel-Tec would have any issue with that. Seems that most JHP's designed for personal protection are plated brass to help deter corrosion. Has anyone gotten thier hands on the new Hornady Critical Defense rounds yet? It has a (rubber?) plug in the "cone" to prevent clogging while passing thru thick materials. Saw them highlighted on the Sportsman channel, but I was unable to find any for sale online.
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #8 - 04/04/09 at 08:10:15
 
Ranger is definately brass cased, and also my favorite SD ammo. I only carry it in my glock (.40 cal), but it is awesome.
 
Ever actually seen one of the rounds after it mushrooms? We fired a few into a pond and dug them out of the mud. It was impressive to say the least. The "petals" are quite sharp and will cut you when digging them out (ask me how I know).
I wish I still had the expanded rounds so I could post a picture, but they were lost in my last move.
 
Edited to add:
Here is what wikipedia has to say about the ranger SXT line:
 
In early 1992 Winchester introduced the "Black Talon", a newly designed hollow-point handgun bullet which used a specially designed, reverse tapered jacket. The jacket was cut at the hollow to intentionally weaken it, and these cuts allowed the jacket to open into six petals upon impact. The thick jacket material kept the tips of the jacket from bending as easily as a normal thickness jacket. The slits that weakened the jacket left triangular shapes in the tip of the jacket, and these triangular sections of jacket would end up pointing out after expansion, leading to the "Talon" name. The bullets were coated with a black colored, paint-like lubricant called "Lubalox," and loaded into nickel-plated brass cases, which made them visually stand out from other ammunition. While actual performance of the Black Talon rounds was not significantly better than any other comparable high performance hollow-point ammunition, the reverse taper jacket did provide reliable expansion under a wide range of conditions, and many police departments adopted the round.
 
Winchester's "Black Talon" product name was eventually used against them. After a high profile shooting at 101 California Street, San Francisco in 1993, media response against Winchester was swift. "This bullet kills you better", says one report; "its six razorlike claws unfold on impact, expanding to nearly three times the bullet's diameter".[9][10] A concern was raised by the American College of Emergency Physicians, that the sharp edges of the jacket could penetrate surgical gloves, and increase the risk of blood borne infections being transmitted to medical personnel treating the gunshot wound. While possible, there are no recorded cases of such an infection occurring in relation to the Black Talon bullets.[11]
 
Winchester responded to the media attacks on the Black Talon line by pulling it from their civilian marketing channels, and selling it only through Winchester law enforcement distributors. They also discontinued applying the black Lubalox coating and renamed the line "Ranger SXT". The new jacket's rounded edges had no functional effect on the terminal performance, but addressed the ACEP's concerns about possible dangers to medical personnel.[12][13][14]
 
Even though Winchester voluntarily pulled Black Talon from the civilian market, they were subsequently sued for another 1993 shooting, this one in New York, involving Black Talon ammunition. The suit claimed "negligent manufacture, advertising and marketing of a product that was unreasonably designed and ultrahazardous." However, the court found that "The very purpose of the Black Talon bullet is to kill or cause severe wounding. Here, plaintiffs concede that the Black Talons performed precisely as intended by the manufacturer".[15] Since the bullet was designed to cause rapid incapacitation, and since it performed as expected, the lawsuit was dismissed.
 
Due to rumor, many people believe that the black coating was Teflon, and that it was intended to allow the bullet to penetrate body armor. This was perpetuated by the movie Ronin, in which the character Sam states that the bullet he was shot with was sprayed with Teflon and that is why it penetrated his vest. Additionally, many people believe that Black Talon rounds were "made illegal" but this is untrue. Winchester voluntarily pulled the round from the market, and the only place that it is illegal to possess the round is in jurisdictions where all hollow point bullets are prohibited by law.
 
 
 
 
 
I'm sort of afraid to try pistol caliber ammo with "rubber" plugs because of my poor experiences with powerball. Seems like my pistols don't like it for some reason, so I'll stay away from the new TAP ammo. I do however carry hornady TAP in my 1911 when I carry it.
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TxCajun
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #9 - 04/04/09 at 23:35:04
 
Quote from airhead on 04/02/09 at 07:46:35:
So I think the inferred statement is a bit of an oxymoron or a bit of prejudice in that "only brass cased ammo can be quality ammo." or "quality ammo only comes in brass cases."

 
The "quality, brass-cased" was para phasing on my part but what KTC is true.  Essentially, they recommend brass-cased only, and not cheapo, thin-walled stuff of ill-repute, no reloads, etc.
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #10 - 04/05/09 at 09:33:26
 
Quote from Sandbox on 04/04/09 at 08:10:15:

I'm sort of afraid to try pistol caliber ammo with "rubber" plugs because of my poor experiences with powerball. Seems like my pistols don't like it for some reason, so I'll stay away from the new TAP ammo. I do however carry hornady TAP in my 1911 when I carry it.

 
the hornady critical defense ammo that has the "rubber plug" in it doesn't protrude out the front of the bullet like the powerball does.(basically an XTP bullet with the cavity filled)
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #11 - 04/05/09 at 22:59:18
 
What is wrong with reloads? They shoot better than factory fmj and I load to 10% under Max load (IE: starting load).  
 
I dont think ANY gun manufacturer recommends reloads. But how many people use them anyway? Smiley
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #12 - 04/06/09 at 09:44:14
 
The whole reason ammo manufacturers recommend not using reloads is that they don't want to have to deal with ammunition of unknown quality with respect to liability.  There's just too many ways a reload can be messed up when folks aren't paying attention, or get creative with loads hotter than recommended in the manuals, and gun companies decrease the odds of problems if guns are limited to factory ammunition.  That being said, I've been shooting my reloads for about 35 years in more guns than I care to count, and haven't had a gun problem yet.
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #13 - 05/31/09 at 06:51:18
 
I don't shoot re-loads, for me the savings wouldn't be justified.    
My PF-9 is noticeably less accurate with heavier loads.  I get maximum accuracy with 115gr FMJ.  
As to the metal used, brass, Aluminum, and steel each have different coefficients of expansion, so would be different sizes after they go off which may be why KT recommends using only the one for which they designed the mechanism.
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Re: Non-Standard Ammo
Reply #14 - 06/11/09 at 13:46:16
 
Smiley  If you go to Kel-Tecs site and take the virtual plant tour, you will see their reloading station!!   Shocked Wink
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