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Suppressors for the RFB Carbine... (Read 5946 times)
stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #15 - 07/16/09 at 23:26:20
 
IF any of you guys want to get a QD suppressor for your RFB OR other weapons, I suggest that you hurry. It seems that on several gunboards there are threads concerning ADAPTERS that allow the use of ONE silencer on many different firearms. It appears that in the view of BATFE, these interfaces ARE considered silencer parts & will be regulated as such & that ONE mount for ONE silencer will be allowed.
 
READ this blurb about a QD component for a YHM silencer:
 
"Emailed YHM about getting a new piston for my Cobra so I could put it on my Sig and this is what I got back.
 
 
 
Sir,
Unfortunately I have bad news. We were finally notified by ATF Monday morning that we can no longer sell individual pistons, 3-lug adapters, fixed barrel adapters and most other components separately. We can sell a sound suppressor with one attaching device and that is it. We are not very happy to say the least. This is going to affect our business tremendously. Apparently, we were the first, and now ATF is going to go after all other sound suppressor manufacturers as well. We are going to fight this, and the owner of this company has already contacted some attorneys about taking legal action. As you saw we were forced to take all the products off our web page or face legal action by ATF. We are waiting to hear the final word on the QD mounts, and I am not expecting good news about them either. All I can tell you now is to be patient while we appeal ATF's ruling and hopefully get it overturned. Sorry for the inconvenience, however our hands are tied at the moment, and no one is more upset than us over this matter."
 
Grandfathered? Threatening letters to come? RAIDS based on mailing lists? OBAMA_NATION?  Shocked
 
Are these KLOWNS thinking with their "dipsticks"? Why do these idiots keep asking for "rulings"?  Roll Eyes
 
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy!
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« Last Edit: 07/17/09 at 00:20:55 by stymie »  

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shan2
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #16 - 07/17/09 at 07:28:28
 
This is BS!   Angry
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KingTiger
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #17 - 07/17/09 at 14:07:18
 
That truely does suck.  Angry
 
Thanks for the heads up.
 
Just ordered a Blackout mount for my M4-2007.
 
Now I guess I'll have to get another host to mount it to.
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stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #18 - 07/17/09 at 18:08:18
 
AAC's company policy has changed & their QD silencers are shipped w/o an FH interface; the FH that is essential for attachment is offered as a separate, optional item.  
 
I picked up an SWR Trident 9 suppressor for my Beretta 92FSs & Walther P.5. I also purchased their conventional thread mount, LCD (booster) & UZI adapter for my Vector Arms full-size UZI smg. I don't know if these rulings are going to be retroactive OR if some items will be considered grandfathered. This could get complicated.
 
I've had a type 03 C&R FFL since 1993 & have NEVER been audited. It seems that some fellow Missourians have been "selected" recently for on-site inspections of A&D Books & Inventory. Even minor errors w/o criminal intent are cause for license revocation.  
 
Over the last few years, I've seen Bowers/ Akins take a serious beating over the Akins' Accelerator when Tech Branch "reversed" a ruling after their product went to market. Other mfrs with innovative belt-fed "uppers" for M11/9 smgs have had to eat product or do time as their devices were "ruled" machine guns in & of themselves. It's amazing what ATF can do with a little ducttape, sensitive primers or "worn" parts for courtroom exhibit A's...   Roll Eyes
 
Silencers/sound suppressors/moderators are surely on ATF's radar & I have NO doubt that they will come under attack just as machine guns did with the 1986 FOPA that put a "limit" on the number of transferables in the NFRTR.
 
Bottom Line: IF you have ever considered saving your ears for better things or just want to reduce the environmental impact of noise pollution, I'd suggest that you do it NOW before they are merely a fond memory...   cry
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ktwm
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #19 - 07/17/09 at 19:40:04
 
This is the first I have heard of this.
 
if limiting QD mounts for suppressors is the goal, then the threads on the end of barrels are next. I guess they are not "quick" detach, but they do allow a suppressor to be used on multiple guns.
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stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #20 - 07/17/09 at 20:05:50
 
I think that this is a classic case of "INCREMENTALISM"... boiled FROG & ALL!
 
GUN CONTROL THROUGH ATTRITION
 
There was another post over at SilencerTalk stating that SWR has now discontinued the sale of QD mounts/devices until this issue/ruling is resolved...
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stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #21 - 07/17/09 at 20:15:35
 
Quote from ktwm on 07/17/09 at 19:40:04:
This is the first I have heard of this.

if limiting QD mounts for suppressors is the goal, then the threads on the end of barrels are next. I guess they are not "quick" detach, but they do allow a suppressor to be used on multiple guns.

 
I can only just imagine what Mike Stannard of "Tornado Technologies" is thinking right now!  Shocked
 
http://www.tornado-technologies.com/services.html
 
IMHO, He's the best in the industry.
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Wes_Janson
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #22 - 07/17/09 at 23:02:25
 
Quote:
Over the last few years, I've seen Bowers/ Akins take a serious beating over the Akins' Accelerator when Tech Branch "reversed" a ruling after their product went to market. Other mfrs with innovative belt-fed "uppers" for M11/9 smgs have had to eat product or do time as their devices were "ruled" machine guns in & of themselves. It's amazing what ATF can do with a little ducttape, sensitive primers or "worn" parts for courtroom exhibit A's...  

 
Hold your horses...let's see what ATF actually says.
 
Much of the internet pays just enough attention to freak out, without paying quite enough to understand what actually occurred.  For all the people running around moaning about Akins, darned few people actually know why he got shut down (and he's certainly not advertising the fact that it was his own darn fault in the first place).  Akins submitted an SKS in a custom stock.  ATF tested it and it broke.  ATF wrote a letter back stating that they tested a broken rifle, and it didn't fire fully auto.  Akins apparently figured himself to be a lawyer, and interpreted that to mean he could go ahead and start selling them.  Regardless of whether ATF had even ruled yea or nea on the rifle he submitted, he went ahead with production of a completely different item, that had never been submitted to ATF for examination.  Hence why it wasn't much of a surprise when someone sent one in, ATF got it to function, said "Hey, this is a machinegun" and then shut him down.  ATF's ruling may have been BS (and should rightfully be contested, even though it's totally hopeless), but he never would have lost the time and money that he did had he actually done things right, like everyone else, and gotten proper confirmation or denial before investing in tooling, production, advertising, etc.  Unsurprisingly, Akins doesn't really like it when people point out where he screwed up..which is why I saved copies of the letters ATF sent to him.  I am not a fan of propaganda, by any side, and the truth deserve to be told.
 
That's just one example.  There's always more to the story than what gets posted onto Arfcom or Glock Talk or wherever else.  And for some odd reason, ATF agents aren't authorized to go online and go post the other side of the story.
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stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #23 - 07/17/09 at 23:59:57
 
Granted the weapon tested was an SKS & a broken firearm (one that cannot produce more than one round of firing from a single manipulation of the trigger) is likely to produce an "invalid" conclusion as to whether or not the combination of the device + SKS = MG. However, in those letters, Tech Branch understood the "operation" nonetheless & still granted "permission" to distribute w/o a post '86 classification. Unfortunately, semantics can often come into play & the definition of what actually constitutes the "trigger" becomes the issue. What should have happened is this: Akins submits a working Ruger 10/22 + AA for the determination. Agreed? In any event, "rulings" are only valid for the entity requesting said ruling, but often become the law of the land as a set precedent. This empowers BATFE to effectively turn opinion into enforceable action for other parties not directly involved, but having a situation of a similar nature.
 
I think that there is sufficient anecdotal basis in fact as well as documented courtroom transcripts to indicate that in many instances ATF has abused their authority by intentionally skewing test parameters.
 
To get back on topic within the context of "silencer" components, if this ruling stands unchallenged, the firearms industry is in for a major wakeup call. It doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to see where this is headed with regard to "threaded barrels" for example.  
 
It's fairly obvious to me, at least, that our RIGHT to own firearms & ammunition is under attack by the Obama Administration. When Obama said that he wasn't after our guns, how many folks actually believed that rubbish? Can you say: PANIC BUYING? AMMO SHORTAGES?
 
I wonder how many people truly understand the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. It has absolutely nothing to do with protecting the "privilege" of duck hunters to use firearms in "sporting" activities. Try to get BATFE to define the concept of "sporting" vs "non-sporting" if you do not understand the concept.
 
With the "Ammo Accountability Act" on the horizon mandating the destruction of ALL stockpiles of non-encoded ammunition & the reintroduction of bills outlawing COP KILLER BULLETS, you'd have to have your head buried in the sand not to grasp what is happening behind the scenes. Virtually all centerfire rifle ammunition has the potential to penetrate a typical "ballistic vest"; armor piercing not withstanding.
 
SLAVES DON'T OWN GUNS... PERIOD
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Wes_Janson
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #24 - 07/18/09 at 21:35:37
 
Quote from stymie on 07/17/09 at 23:59:57:
Granted the weapon tested was an SKS & a broken firearm (one that cannot produce more than one round of firing from a single manipulation of the trigger) is likely to produce an "invalid" conclusion as to whether or not the combination of the device + SKS = MG. However, in those letters, Tech Branch understood the "operation" nonetheless & still granted "permission" to distribute w/o a post '86 classification. Unfortunately, semantics can often come into play & the definition of what actually constitutes the "trigger" becomes the issue. What should have happened is this: Akins submits a working Ruger 10/22 + AA for the determination. Agreed? In any event, "rulings" are only valid for the entity requesting said ruling, but often become the law of the land as a set precedent. This empowers BATFE to effectively turn opinion into enforceable action for other parties not directly involved, but having a situation of a similar nature.

 
I agree that Akins should have submitted a working 10/22 stock assembly for testing.  But he didn't.  And despite what he claims, ATF never granted approval.  Read them for yourself:
 
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/WesJanson/ATF/batfetech1p1.gif
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/WesJanson/ATF/batfetech1p2.gif
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/WesJanson/ATF/batfetech2p1.gif
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/WesJanson/ATF/batfetech2p2.gif
 
In the first letter, ATF never comments on the design.  They reiterate how it works, they state what the law says, and then they say that the thing broke and didn't fire full-auto.  The second letter is where it gets trickier, and where Akins simply read what he wanted in their response.  If you're accustomed to dealing with the ATF, and lawyers in general, then it's glaringly obvious what ATF did in the second letter.  Rather than rule on a principle of operation, they chose to avoid making a decision by stating in as many words "This isn't a machinegun so long as it isn't a machinegun."  ATF technical letters are not written in plain English, they're written in lawyerese, which requires a certain degree of translation to fully appreciate and understand.  The bottom paragraph of the first page of the second letter actually states in italics the key, crucial point that Akins overlooked: their ruling wasn't a determination of universal principle, but a finding of a particular object at a particular time.
 
This is why prudent individuals hire lawyers, to deal with the government (and other people's) lawyers.  And when non-prudent individuals decide that they don't need to pay a lawyer for something like that, they wind up losing their money or their freedom.
 
Quote:
It's fairly obvious to me, at least, that our RIGHT to own firearms & ammunition is under attack by the Obama Administration. When Obama said that he wasn't after our guns, how many folks actually believed that rubbish? Can you say: PANIC BUYING? AMMO SHORTAGES?

 
And yet, so far Obama has done less to harm our gun rights (probably done more to advance them truth be told, considering the National Parks Carry issue) than George Bush Senior did.  People weren't running around screaming their heads off when Bush Senior was in office, but yet Obama is the coming of the apocalypse and all is lost.  Ammo shortages are the result of panic buying, which itself is the result of market speculation.  The market speculated that gun control was imminent, and thus far it seems clear that the public guessed wrong.  Hence why the bottom is dropping out of the market now.
 
Quote:

With the "Ammo Accountability Act" on the horizon mandating the destruction of ALL stockpiles of non-encoded ammunition & the reintroduction of bills outlawing COP KILLER BULLETS, you'd have to have your head buried in the sand not to grasp what is happening behind the scenes. Virtually all centerfire rifle ammunition has the potential to penetrate a typical "ballistic vest"; armor piercing not withstanding.

 
The ammo accountability thing has been hashed to death forever, and it's effectively dead.  It isn't happening.  Maybe years down the road things may change, but it's simply not a threat right now.  There hasn't been a credible gun control bill introduced into Congress in years.
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mahnmut
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #25 - 07/18/09 at 23:02:44
 
I am no lawyer, nor am I a political analyst....but I'm not sure a congressional bill is necessary to get several gun owners in trouble in this case.  The BATFE, who has a friend in the whitehouse that I'm sure is quite willing to look the other way,  can rule by fiat that, say, the 10mm thread adapter that SWR Spectre for attachment to the FN FiveseveN is now a "Suppressor Part" and therefore a suppressor in and of itself.  (Meaning, that if I possessed both 1/2x28 and 10mm thread caps for the Spectre, I would need TWO tax stamps.) So possession of an individual thread adapter could be considered an unregistered suppressor. This stroke of the pen could turn hundreds of people who own suppressors into unwitting felons......all without the say so of Congress.  
 
This is why Bureaucracies are so dangerous...every new government agency reduces the power of Elected Officials.  Making our republican (little R) way of life a farce.
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Wes_Janson
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #26 - 07/19/09 at 00:13:10
 
Quote:
I am no lawyer, nor am I a political analyst....but I'm not sure a congressional bill is necessary to get several gun owners in trouble in this case. The BATFE, who has a friend in the whitehouse that I'm sure is quite willing to look the other way, can rule by fiat that, say, the 10mm thread adapter that SWR Spectre for attachment to the FN FiveseveN is now a "Suppressor Part" and therefore a suppressor in and of itself. (Meaning, that if I possessed both 1/2x28 and 10mm thread caps for the Spectre, I would need TWO tax stamps.) So possession of an individual thread adapter could be considered an unregistered suppressor. This stroke of the pen could turn hundreds of people who own suppressors into unwitting felons......all without the say so of Congress.

This is why Bureaucracies are so dangerous...every new government agency reduces the power of Elected Officials. Making our republican (little R) way of life a farce.

 
Yes, they could.  They could also rule that set screws are unregistered machineguns, and try to force compliance by arresting anyone found in possession of a set screw.
 
The catch is, ATF isn't going to do something that's overwhelmingly self-destructive to themselves.  If they go out and create an entire class of criminals, the Congressional fallout would be harmful to their own security and interests.  If they rule that threaded mounts are suppressors themselves, then they'd have to come up with some sort of equitable method by which owners could register them or otherwise sidestep the necessity to register them.  Conducting arrests over flashhiders will also get political flak thrown their way.  So ATF has to find a central ground that follows their own legislative imperatives (to execute the law as it is written and enacted by our democratically elected representatives) while also satisfying the industry and gun owners as best as possible.  They've certainly been known to come out with a preliminary decision, run face-first into a wall of criticism, and then turn around and change things around to where they need to be.
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stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #27 - 07/19/09 at 00:40:48
 
Wes_Janson...
 
Here's a little light reading for you, courtesy of the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION:
 
http://thetruthorthefight.wordpress.com/category/gun-rights2nd-amendment/
 
Should you want to discuss POLITICS, perhaps a separate thread elsewhere should deal with that issue.
 
Defining what constitutes a "silencer part" is the real threat here!
 
"This stroke of the pen could turn hundreds of people who own suppressors into unwitting felons......all without the say so of Congress."
 
I remember a time that I legally purchased a STRIKER-12 "shotgun" on a 4473 from a type 01 FFL. This 12rd, 12ga weapon could NOT be imported for civilian sales, so it was manufactured in the USA by SWD in the format of the "Streetsweeper" & by Sentinel Arms & Penn Arms as the "STRIKER-12". These companies were also granted "permission" to do so by TECH Branch. At some point, Lloyd Bentsen invoked the "non-sporting clause" to reclassify this firearm as a "Destructive Device". Afterall, it has a bore diameter over 1/2" & IS NON-SPORTING (whatever that means) in the "opinion" of this Treasury official. Come to think of it, how many 12gauge shotguns are out there right now that might be reclassified because some @$$KLOWN says they are "non-sporting"? You think about that long & hard!
 
An amnesty period was granted for the NFA registration of said weapon including the Daewoo/Gilbert USAS-12 as well. If you are caught with an unregistered DD, you are subject to $250K in fines & 10 years at Leavenworth for each count.
 
At least in America, you are still free to be blissfully in denial or merely delusional.
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stymie
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #28 - 07/19/09 at 13:08:43
 
Any apologists out there care to comment on this one:  
 
http://www.fema.gov/media/fact_sheets/nle09.shtm
 
 lips sealed
 
NICE! A fully coordinated effort, NATION-wide, to stage FEMA disaster drills simulating MARTIAL LAW aka The Emergency Constitution including firearms confiscation the week of July 27th.
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Bert
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Re: Suppressors for the RFB Carbine...
Reply #29 - 07/19/09 at 15:13:29
 
Admittedly, I only read (several times) the fact sheet that was highlighted in the previous post.
 
Can you provide pointers on where this exercise invokes or simulates martial law ?
 
Thanks, Bert
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