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Replacement Magazine Springs (Read 1905 times)
ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #15 - 09/13/09 at 17:29:22
 
After reading the How to Post a Pic, still don't get it, might be more PC chalanged than some of the kids out there.  If someone that understands how to attach picks sends me a PM, I'll attach 3 pics for posting.  Other than that, I give up!!!!  Easier to fix the mags than post a pic Grin
Chris
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #16 - 09/13/09 at 17:48:41
 
The other benifit I neglected to mention is that pressing the mag release now spits the mag free of the gun with much more force.  If your hand isn't in the way it will eject clear of the gun every time, sure would make for a faster reload in a fight.  Also noticed that the slide stop lever is engageing off the top left corner of the new flat mag follower, the follower has a better bite on the lever, would be safe to guess that this is one that won't ware the corner off!!
Chris
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zeke
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #17 - 09/14/09 at 19:30:20
 
PM with email address sent.
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Nobody would fear the gun - if it wasn't for the bullet
Thunder's just the noise - Lightning does the work
-- Chad Brock
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #18 - 09/15/09 at 09:37:15
 
Thanks Zeke,
Pics are in your email.
Chris
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zeke
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #19 - 09/17/09 at 18:03:37
 

Click image to enlarge

Pic #1 = ( left to right ) factory KT spring unaltered, cut S&W model 39 spring ( note simple bent sheet metal follower on top of center spring ) Right spring is an uncut S&W model 39 as it comes from Wolf Gun Springs.
 

Click image to enlarge

Pic #2 = The simple 2 bend sheet metal follower
 

Click image to enlarge

Pic #3 = Mag assembled with new spring and follower in place.
 
 
Sorry it took so long for me to get the pics up.
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Nobody would fear the gun - if it wasn't for the bullet
Thunder's just the noise - Lightning does the work
-- Chad Brock
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #20 - 09/18/09 at 19:43:34
 
Thanks Zeke for posting my pics.
I'll try to get out Sunday and run another 100 rounds through this modified mag.  I think if it functions like the first 100, I'm gona called this thing "Fixed"  Second pistol will get the mods at the same time.   On earlier threads dealing with this problem it appeared that I was in the minority, most worked well.  After a 50% failure to chamber a live round, I'm gona need many rounds through this think before it takes it's place as a CCW.
Chris
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #21 - 09/25/09 at 17:12:00
 
Finaly got time to do the last few tests on the new spring and follower.  Worked out much better than I'd hoped.  
First test:
Two PF9s fired 100 rounds each with the new mag (WWB ammo ) with no malfunctions.  Also, the slide stop worked every time.  ( can't tell you how it will work with other brands of ammo, not tested )
 
Second test:
Used the factory unaltered mags as a control test.  Failures ranged from 1/3 to 1/2 of the 7 shots per mag.  After 3 mags per gun we ended the test, seamed no point in continueing.
 
Third test :  ( limp wristing, factory mag )
This one was hard on the hand.  Fired 3 mags per gun with factory unaltered mags using only the thumb and trigger finger to fire.  Both guns used, 3 mags each.  Held the gun as loose as possible.  Failure to feed almost every shot.
 
Forth test :  ( limp wristing, altered mag )
Fired 3 mags per gun, same thumb and trigger finger fireing.  No failures to feed, no failures to lock back on the final shot.  
 
The conclusion I've drawn from these tests is that the PF9 is leaving the factory with a mag spring that is bairly enough to do the job, and in some cases, not enough to function reliably.  ( my guns are a case in point )  With the stronger S&W model 39 spring that fills the mag body better, function seams to be greatly improved.  The front and rear of the factory plastic follower limit the size of the spring that can be used with the factory follower.  The 16ga flat sheet metal follower I made is a great improvement in feed and function while allowing use of the bigger mag spring.  Only improvement I can see that I want to do before calling this one "done" is to use 16ga SS to make the followers out of.  
 
Limp wristing:
You will notice that in our test #3&4, limp wristing was used.  Reason for this test was I suspected that a weak mag spring was somehow demanding a special grip to get some sort of reliable function.  Notice that with the factory mag and the limp wrist, the guns failed almost every time.  Also notice with the same grip and the altered mag, there was 100% reliable function.  I think that test proves that the limp wristing issues, while real, were caused by a weak mag spring.  I think this matters to those of us who would carry this as a CCW.  When the pistol is needed, you won't have time to think about how you are holding the pistol, and will most likely draw and fire as soon as you would get alignment with the target.  Because this pistol is intended as a CCW and not a range gun, these limp wristing issues could get you killed.   And that takes up back to the mag issue.  The gun itself is basicly sound and functional, the mag, in my judgement needs a upgrade.  I'm going to be able to fix mine and make it highly reliable, but this issue is something for other members to give some thought to before trusting your life to this pistol.  In my opinion, think the factory needs to step up to the plate, the mags supplied by their vendor are sub-standard.  The replacement follower and spring wouldn't be much different in cost than what they are now using, mag body, base plate could remain the same.  There are going to be those who laugh at this and I urge them to try this simple test when fireing next time.  Fire only using the trigger finger and the thumb and see what happens.  
Chris
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Steve.gonefshn
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #22 - 07/20/10 at 15:12:28
 
Hey Chris:
 
In your pictures, the over-all-length OAL of the S&W spring you cut down looks to be just a tad bit shorter than the original KT spring. Is that just an optical illusion, or is it because the spring windings lined-up that way.
 
Would there be too much pressure from the spring, and or not enough room under the follower for another whole winding of the S&W spring?  
 
Just curious. I'll probably try making one of these.
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #23 - 07/20/10 at 19:51:26
 
The spring is 1 coil longer than the factory.  Someone else came up with a better way to measure.  It seams 50oz of pressure seams to work best for feeding, and timeing of the gun.  Take a small scale and stand a loaded round on it's base on the scale.  Adjust ( cut ) the OAL of the spring to give 50oz of pressure as the mag follower is being depressed on the scale ( by the round standing up on the scale ) about halfway down the round.  Good luck, I'm just about to go out and fire mine, get another 50 or so through.  After the change I must have close to 900 rounds through now, still no FTFeed issues,not one.  It's a hot SOB out here, won't stay out long.
Chris
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Steve.gonefshn
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #24 - 07/21/10 at 07:54:08
 
Hi Chris:
Hope you stayed cool long enough to get some quality firing time.  
 
Question, the spring in the middle is the one that has the 50oz pressure, correct?
 
Thanks again for your patience and uderstanding.
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #25 - 07/21/10 at 08:37:40
 
Yes, spring on the left is stock PF9.  But I should add to that the stock spring was streached during testing.  This was part of seeing if a little extra tension would make a difference.  But it did create the ilusion in the pic that the replacement spring was almost equal OAL.  Stock springs were around 4 3/4" long from Kel-Tec.  The streached spring worked a little better, didn't cure the problem.   Also note that the sheet metal follower had to have the bends tightened from what is pictured.  This was to make the slide hold open work better.  Gun fired without a flaw yesterday again.  Best method of measuring the spring is to use a scale and set for 50oz or so.  You will find this happens with the S&W spring about 1 coil longer than the stock spring.  The S&W spring uses larger wire in the spring.  
Chris
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Steve.gonefshn
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #26 - 07/21/10 at 08:52:43
 
Thanks Chris!
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Steve.gonefshn
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #27 - 07/24/10 at 20:47:29
 
Rec'd my modified followers from KT and they work great.  
 
Also tried the homemade follower above with the KT original spring. Works really good. I ended up using a piece cut from a nailing strap. It was .05", so I figured it was strong enough to do the job. Had to actually do it twice because like Chris mentioned above, the corners had to be sharper. Use the edge of the anvil on my bench top metal vise to get the corners tighter. 50 rounds later and no problems.  I'll probably get the S&W spring and try that as well. AM waiting on a couple extra mags from KT.
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misnomerga
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #28 - 07/26/10 at 09:56:48
 
I was energized by all the comments here on the metal mag follower.  I examined my follower which I have only used to put the first 100 rounds down range and sure enough I noticed a very slight wear on the notch, so I went down to the workshop and fabricated one.   The only modification I am thinking of making is to let the front leg of the follower be a little longer.  Other than that I will be off to the range to test this new change.   From what I am reading on here I may or may not need to replace the factory spring.  Is this true in every case where folks have replaced the plastic follower with metal?
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ewheel
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Re: Replacement Magazine Springs
Reply #29 - 07/26/10 at 11:19:48
 
The thing that made me consider making a new follower was the fact that a larger spring wouldn't fit between the legs.  The follower, while made from material that is to soft, still worked fine feeding rounds.  The slide hold open knotch didn't last long because of the soft material, but I could live with that one.  Real problem was the FTFeed issue.  Found I needed a stronger mag spring to cure the almost 50% FTFeed issue in all but 1 of my 4 mags in 2 guns.  The single stack S&W model 39 mag spring size was perfect.  Besides being to long ( and can be cut down ) it fits the Kel-Tec mag body perfectly.  The wire size in the S&W mag spring is a little larger as well = just a little more push behind the rounds.  That little more push on the rounds cured the FTFeed issues for good and having to make a new follower for the new spring cured some other problems at the same time.  One of these was the  
"limp wristing issue".  Seams with the factory mag and spring, the PF9's I have, they were very picky about how you hold them and fire.  After the spring change, they don't seam to care at all, any position, any hold, they work fine.  That would make me thing that the " limp wristing" problem was one of timeing and spring tension in the mag all along.  I can fire these things with just a thumb and the trigger finger now and they feed and fire just fine.  I personaly wouldn't have gone through the trouble to make new followers except I needed to try larger, stronger mag springs.  Another member here came up with a better way to measure spring tension better using a scale.  To make a follower and use a factory spring ?? don't know if there is enough spring to make it work ??  Springs are less than $10 ea from Wolf.  PF9 factory mag springs are small enough to be used in a .380, think that is what got me in trouble in the first place.  It took almost 1000 rounds through the gun after the change to restore my conficence in this pistol.  I'm calling this morning and buying a holster to press this into service as a CCW.  There are others here who have great luck with the PF9 out of the box, I'm just not one of them.  I think with a little more work on the mag at the factory, I would have been,
Chris
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