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Well I did it....purchased an RFB (more pics pg.3) (Read 1962 times)
keltecrfb
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Well I did it....purchased an RFB (more pics pg.3)
10/13/09 at 17:30:15
 
I decided to bid on the RFB everalm1 posted about over at Auction Arms.  I got it for $1906 which was more than I really wanted to pay for it but I was sick of waiting for one of the ones I ordered to come in.  I look forward to joining the club  Smiley.
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« Last Edit: 11/18/09 at 15:18:28 by keltecrfb »  
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Liberty4Ever
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Re: Well I did it....
Reply #1 - 10/17/09 at 18:22:32
 
CONGRATULATIONS keltecrfb!!!
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bushjockey
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Re: Well I did it....
Reply #2 - 10/17/09 at 18:57:21
 
Congrats Dude!  It's a small club right now, but I think it'll end up being really big...
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thomaspatrickhenry
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Re: Well I did it....
Reply #3 - 10/17/09 at 19:46:18
 
Congratulations, don't be afraid to put alot of rounds through it, the RFB can take it.  They seem to get more accurate with use, or maybe we get more accurate!  Enjoy, and  
 
show us the photo's! Grin
 
TPH
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keltecrfb
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #4 - 11/03/09 at 20:35:27
 
Well I received the call that my rifle had arrived on Friday so I went and picked it up the following day with great anticipation.  It is a well crafted weapon as others have said and has a very solid feel to it.  I was busy all weekend so I didn't get to do much with it until yesterday when I finally got around to breaking it down for it's maiden clean/lube.  It was definately a new adventure as I followed the manual and dismembered it.  It is a well thought out design and I love the trigger!  Re-assembly was fairly easy until it came to inserting the rear retaining pins.  I had a similar problem as another member aligning the pieces so the pins could be re-inserted.  I could get the front pin in but the pin furthest back was a PITA.  Every time I tried to slip the grip assembly over the top cover and chamber (after aligning the holes in the two) it would move them just enough to make sliding the pin in difficult.  After several tries I sanded a piece of pencil down enough to fit in the aligned holes of the top cover and chamber.  I then slipped the grip assembly over the two, pushed the pin in and forced the pencil out.  Not ideal but it worked.  I then put the rifle up for the day as I was watching my children and they required attention more than the rifle  Grin.  Today I wanted to try a little non live fire function testing to make sure there would be no issues when I get around to test firing it (hopefully this weekend).  I loaded up the mag which came it with to 20 rounds and attempted to load the mag with the bolt closed (just to see if it would seat properly).  As others have said it would not do so, 19 rounds yes... 20 no.  Next I locked back the bolt, inserted a full mag, and hit the bolt stop release......  Angry darn, it only rode home about an inch and hung up (I think bushjockey had experienced this).  I gave it a firm push and it continued on it's way.  I removed the mag, racked the slide to eject the round, and did the process all over again.  Same results.  I did this once more with no improvement.  I then tried to just release the charging handle instead of using the bolt stop release and the bolt slammed home like it should.  I tried this a few times both ways and got the same results each time.  I did manage to get the bolt stop release to work once where it actually chambered a round but that was it.  I also tried two other mags to see if it was just the mag but they made no difference.  I will be calling Kel-Tec in the morning but right now I'm a little disappointed..
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« Last Edit: 11/03/09 at 22:02:44 by keltecrfb »  
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ormandj
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #5 - 11/04/09 at 01:29:01
 
Did you strip/degrease the rifle, and then properly lubricate it before attempting all of this? Mine loosened up considerably after doing so. Also, it took about 200 rounds fired before it started running well. Now it's easier to pull the charging handle, and the gas setting I need to reliably cycle/lock the bolt has opened up considerably.
 
As to the pin issue, I was the one who posted about it, and I've determined the best way to deal with it is to squeeze the stock and lower together, then push in the pin closest to the middle of the lower. Moving it in a circular motion made this much easier for me. Then, when dealing with the top pin, I do the same circular motion while pressing it in, and it generally 'just works'.
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Underground
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #6 - 11/04/09 at 01:37:26
 
I believe someone mentioned looking for the serial number to line up in the cut out.  That does help to know when you have it in the right position.
 
I've also noticed the action on mine seems to be getting a bit smoother as I've put some rounds through it.
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judcargile
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #7 - 11/04/09 at 13:00:54
 
The bolt sticking while loading a full mag seems to be dependent on the magazine position,it rocks forward and backward a bit. When it does stick, a slight foward wack to the charging handle always brings it home and I am use to it, no big hairy deal to me. With a full mag while bolt is foward, the manual is clear that it takes a SOLID whack.....you have to hit with follow through force, you can't half-ass hit at it. With bolt to rear, a limp push will lock her in.
 
 
Tuning the gas adjust is most people's problem. I am six clicks back from fully closed to cycle reliably and I think Stymie's is the same...we shoot similiar ammo.    ONE round in mag while adjusting!!!!
 
People are starting to post substandard accuracy results. Get use to your rifle and if you have never been able to get 1/2moa results from a 1/2moa rifle CONSISTENTLY.....do not post your results PLEASE!! George has worked too hard at this master piece to only have wanna be warriors muddy the water.
 
Are you on a bipod?(prone position is best when practical) Do you perform dime/washer drills to realize correct trigger squeeze?(the boom should surprise you!) Do you begin squeeze during pause after exhale? How do you determine if you canting the rifle? Is your cheeck/stock weld consistent? ARE YOU USING RIFLE QUALITY AMMO THAT IS SUITABLE FOR THE TWIST RATE?
 
Be patient, take your time and have a ball........you are going to love this rifle alot more than you ever dreamed!!!
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everalm1
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #8 - 11/04/09 at 14:14:50
 
For those who may not have a handle on breathing control, this can make the difference between and X ring and a flyer.....Cool I would also recommend a sling
 
Bring the rifle snugly to shoulder (if it's loose it'll hurt)
 
Don't do a death grip on the grip or stock as you will shortly start to micro tremble as your muscles tighten up.
 
Sight and breath in and out normally, do not take up tension in your arms.
 
There will be sight wobble, mostly be vertical at this point and is a natural consequence of breathing......quite important to you....Cool
 
When you have the target acquired, take any slack in the sling up and breath in and out deeply twice, FULLY. Expect the rifle to move up and down in a vertical plane.
 
On the second breath out, exhale, stop and do not "hold your breath", you have already flushed the carbon dioxide, which triggers the breathing reflex and you will not feel a need to breath for 5 -10 seconds.
 
Vertical wobble will be minimal now, bring the sights down to the target and squeeze the trigger, following through and then safety on and relax.
 
If you still don't feel you are sighted well, want to shift position etc stop, finger off trigger, safety on, tension off hands and arms, wait a short time and restart the process.
 
If you stay in tension or hold your breath you will quickly start feeling your lungs and blood flow pulsing and you'll be all over the target.
 
The idea is to surprise yourself when the round goes down range.
 
You can do a lot of this at home before going to the range so you are prepared before hand.
 
The biggest points are be comfortable in a position, know your limitations and enjoy what your doing. The more you fret the worse it'll get.......
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keltecrfb
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #9 - 11/04/09 at 16:50:41
 
Good advice for all in the above posts.  I will hopefully get a chance to test fire it this weekend.  I spoke to someone at Keltec this morning and he told me to fire it some to see if it straightens out and if not to call them back.  After getting off the phone with him I tried a different magazine and went through the drill again of locking back the bolt back, slapping in a full mag, and hitting the bolt release.  No problems, went through all 20 rounds in the mag (dropped the mag, racked the slide to clear the round, re-inserted the mag with the bolt locked back, etc.) and not a hiccup.  Hopefully all is well.  I will try to squeeze off a few rounds tomorrow.  I've got a variety of ammo to try when I get the time, 147gr. Prvi, 150gr. Prvi, 165gr. Federal, 180gr. Remington, 150gr. Wolf, and a couple others.  Time will tell but I love the feel and appearance of the rifle.  I've got an Eotech on it right now but will be getting either an Acog, Aimpoint, or the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T in the near future.
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #10 - 11/04/09 at 19:16:58
 
 I've got an Eotech on it right now but will be getting either an Acog, Aimpoint, or the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T in the near future.
 
good luck with the RFB
 
there was someone else on the web who put a Leupold mark 4 CQ/T on their RFB and said they really enjoyed that scope.
 
will be very interesting to hear your take on it ( if you go with that scope )
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ormandj
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #11 - 11/05/09 at 03:44:06
 
Quote from judcargile on 11/04/09 at 13:00:54:
The bolt sticking while loading a full mag seems to be dependent on the magazine position,it rocks forward and backward a bit. When it does stick, a slight foward wack to the charging handle always brings it home and I am use to it, no big hairy deal to me. With a full mag while bolt is foward, the manual is clear that it takes a SOLID whack.....you have to hit with follow through force, you can't half-ass hit at it. With bolt to rear, a limp push will lock her in.


Tuning the gas adjust is most people's problem. I am six clicks back from fully closed to cycle reliably and I think Stymie's is the same...we shoot similiar ammo.    ONE round in mag while adjusting!!!!

People are starting to post substandard accuracy results. Get use to your rifle and if you have never been able to get 1/2moa results from a 1/2moa rifle CONSISTENTLY.....do not post your results PLEASE!! George has worked too hard at this master piece to only have wanna be warriors muddy the water.

Are you on a bipod?(prone position is best when practical) Do you perform dime/washer drills to realize correct trigger squeeze?(the boom should surprise you!) Do you begin squeeze during pause after exhale? How do you determine if you canting the rifle? Is your cheeck/stock weld consistent? ARE YOU USING RIFLE QUALITY AMMO THAT IS SUITABLE FOR THE TWIST RATE?

Be patient, take your time and have a ball........you are going to love this rifle alot more than you ever dreamed!!!

 
To preface this, no offense taken. That said, I can consistently achieve cloverleafs on five shoot groupings off a sandbag rest, let alone something more sophisticated. EVERYONE should post their results with this rifle. Censorship is never the correct response. You mention twist rate - that's quite fair - and heavier loads shoot more accurately - I still shoot .3" at 100m with 150gr loads in a 30'06 700 I've built (handloads) and shoot .6" with 165gr loads. I shoot .4 with 180gr loads I've developed - even with the heavier recoil. I would have hoped this board would not assume failure as a default, but I am gathering defensiveness and assumption are trumping reality at this point. Expecting such small groups out of a semi automatic with a tilting bolt on a rifle with the barrel being the primary support is insane. I challenge anyone to print sub 0.9" groups at 100m (5 shot) out of an RFB, using any ammunition you'd like. This rifle (with the 18" barrel) was not designed for this, and it is not realistic to expect such. I'd love for somebody to prove me wrong. Provide me load data if you can. Wink
 
Stop treating people new to this platform as ignorant people - many are not. 160+gr does shoot better, but we need to set expectations realistically. I challenge anybody to shoot Federal Match 168gr or any other top quality ammunition suited to this twist rate sub MOA in a 5 shot group. If you're using iron sights, give up; the sight radius isn't there. If you're using optics, good luck to you as well. You might make sub-moa with handloads. Again, share your load data. Smiley
 
judcargile/stymie, let's see it. I've seen the same commentary from you both. If you shoot sub-MOA reliably from the RFB, tell me your loadings. I'll lock my rifle up solid and feed it the same loads without the human factor and see how it fairs.
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judcargile
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #12 - 11/05/09 at 08:52:02
 
Okay, I am a fool! I also will apologize for my rant on the +5moa thread. From the information you just posted, you seem have your basics pegged down. But, what gives you BETTER groups,a bag or bipod? FederalGMMand Priv Match are the ammo (168) I use (and ONLY have used) in all of my rifles. (1/2moa ALWAYS!!!!)Steyr SSG PIIK,H-S Precision Tactical Take Down were as accurate as you want. They have been replaced by an Armalite SuperSass and RFB. I can not tell the difference!!! I can carrying them!!! (the semis do group a l-i-t-t-l-e broader)
 
You also said that a semi, tilting block,barrel as spine is just not up to snuff for sub moa work, so you do not accept KT's claim of moa or better with the target model?  
 
I would be hard pressed to find a reference on the RFB without a cheek piece. Using One?
 
When you use better ammo AND a bipod AND a cheek piece, you will get sub moa results too. I only reload for my Barrett M82A1CQ....surplus AP,API,Primed Isreali Brass and H50(225gr) that baby is sub MOA and I can not believe it!!! The bullet weights vary so much.  I expect you will be VERY pleased with your reloads......I will start reloading for 308 soon enough but, I bought ALOT of Priv Match last year and am planning to burn through 1000 before I start reloading......by the way,do you have any data for subsonic loads? I am willing to cycle the rounds manually.
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ormandj
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #13 - 11/05/09 at 11:41:32
 
Quote from judcargile on 11/05/09 at 08:52:02:
Okay, I am a fool! I also will apologize for my rant on the +5moa thread. From the information you just posted, you seem have your basics pegged down. But, what gives you BETTER groups,a bag or bipod? FederalGMMand Priv Match are the ammo (168) I use (and ONLY have used) in all of my rifles. (1/2moa ALWAYS!!!!)Steyr SSG PIIK,H-S Precision Tactical Take Down were as accurate as you want. They have been replaced by an Armalite SuperSass and RFB. I can not tell the difference!!! I can carrying them!!! (the semis do group a l-i-t-t-l-e broader)

You also said that a semi, tilting block,barrel as spine is just not up to snuff for sub moa work, so you do not accept KT's claim of moa or better with the target model?

I would be hard pressed to find a reference on the RFB without a cheek piece. Using One?

When you use better ammo AND a bipod AND a cheek piece, you will get sub moa results too. I only reload for my Barrett M82A1CQ....surplus AP,API,Primed Isreali Brass and H50(225gr) that baby is sub MOA and I can not believe it!!! The bullet weights vary so much.  I expect you will be VERY pleased with your reloads......I will start reloading for 308 soon enough but, I bought ALOT of Priv Match last year and am planning to burn through 1000 before I start reloading......by the way,do you have any data for subsonic loads? I am willing to cycle the rounds manually.

 
I am only speaking about the only RFB available now, with the 18" barrel. I can't make accuracy claims about a rifle that doesn't exist to the public, yet (target model). I'll lock down my rifle (removing the human factor) once I finish all my initial testing and see what the consistency of the rifle is using ammunition that I know has bullet weights within +-0.1gr, powder charges +-0.1gr and a COAL that does not fluctuate. A ten shot group, through a chronograph for proof of ammunition consistency, without a human there flinching or otherwise modifying the POI should tell all. I'd love to see 1/2 MOA groups, I just don't expect to based on my findings thus far. I think MOA is a more reasonable expectation based on the rifle the public currently has in their hands. If I see a 1/4 MOA group with the right loads, you better believe I'll be posting all over this forum (and others) bragging about it. Wink
 
I can try and come up with some subsonic loads for you, however, if you're running a suppressor - it will be difficult due to differences in pressure. I might be able to find a minimum load. How does the suppressor generally impact your reloads? Do you see any pressure signs? How does velocity change with the suppressor with which loadings (ie: which powder does what, it's important as the burn rate will matter).
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stymie
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Re: Well I did it....purchased an RFB  (update)
Reply #14 - 11/05/09 at 15:39:47
 
As I have mentioned previously, I only own two .308s currently & my primary stash is Fed .308m. I have the RFB carbine & a Remington model 700LTRS/DM that I just recently got back from Georgia Precision/GAP. I had George Gardner's crew perform a few tweaks & thread the barrel 5/8 - 24tpiRH & provide a matching thread protector. The Belgian 50.63 paratrooper, Springfield Armory HK 91/G3, KAC/KMC Stoner SR-25K/RAS, AWC M1A G2 bullpup & Remington Police/PSS are history. My two current pieces cover all the territory I require logistically.
 
While Fed .308m exhibits incredible accuracy in both weapons & my POI has not undergone a discernible change whatsoever while shooting them suppressed with an AAC Cyclone, I'd suggest going to Remington's 168gr match equivalent in the RFB while using a can. With this silencer, my RFB shows signs of extreme overpressure; flowing/flattened primers, completely blown out primers & severe case neck damage from whacking the ejection chute pretty darn hard. The Winchester Q3130, while not as accurate (2moa vs under 1moa), only has an issue with slight case neck deformation; no primer concerns at all. As the Cyclone is a thread-on can (no QD FH blowby) with a very close bore/baffle stack tolerance, it is contributing to the problem regardless of gas settings. My bolt-action LOVES the Fed .308m & even with a can, I have never had an issue. I'll be picking up some Remington Match soon for experimentation to see if it helps as I know the brass is significantly more resilient. Even Trey Knight of KAC had recommend it to me for the Stoner SR-25K as opposed to Federal's offering, although in the operator's manual it is suggested. Live & learn in time.
 
It is pretty darn KOOL to shoot an RFB with a quality suppressor; NO EARS! It's actually hearing safe, believe it or not. I can't say the same thing for the SCAR-H SD as it leaks gas out the rear endcap of the Blackout QD FH mount & the baffle stack bore ID is larger, contributing to less backpressure. The bore axis has to have a larger ID due to the induced wobble in its mount.
 
So, if shooting suppressed is your thing in an RFB, maybe you should work up a load similar to Remington's Premier Match (RM308W7)...
 
As far as subsonic ammo goes, I have had LAPUA 200gr subsonic with rebated boattail heyhole 3 rds out of 40 fired, so it's definitely not going through my can. The 1: 11.25 twist is way too slow to stabilize it. I wouldn't know what to suggest & believe me, I'm all ears on that one!
 
Your choice of optics is going to make all the difference in the world. If I had it to do over, I'd opt for the Trijicon AccuPoint 1 - 4x 30mm tube with German #4 reticle (crosshair) on a LaRue throwlever mount. It's less busy than my 6x ACOG & much faster on target, at least for me as I'm still trying to adapt to a chevron. It takes way too much concentration for precision shots at long range.
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